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Kradam Rock Opera is destined for greatness

2010 May 8
by TopIdol

Finally watching the latest Degrassi: The Next Generation. Yeah, I watch Canadian teenage melodrama. Got a problem with that? Since the episode focused on fan fiction, it was obviously a sign I should post exquisite bit of Kradam analysis slash found on LiveJournal. For some people, the dream of Adam Lambert mounting Kris Allen just will not die. The author of this crap has imagined both Allen and Lambert’s debut albums to be some sort of subconscious rock opera documenting Kradam’s eternal love.

Yes, I am obsessive-compulsive, but I’m not psychotic or delusional (I don’t think).
Do you ever wonder if Kris or Adam ever secretly publish their own Kradam fic? Or do you ever wish that Kris and Adam would just tell us that Kradam is real? Well, guess what? They’ve done both! At least, I think they’ve done both.

I believe that Adam’s and Kris’s albums are actually parts of a rock opera. Yes, a rock opera. Now, before you roll your eyes at the overenthusiastic, crazy tinhatter, I hope you’ll give me a chance to explain.

When put in a certain order, the songs on their albums, plus a few others that they regularly sing, form a narrative about the development of their relationship. Each song is like a piece of a musical jigsaw puzzle, and there are often clues in the music and/or the lyrics about how the pieces fit together. And, no, I don’t suffer from hallucinations or delusions (I don’t think anyway!). It just takes some literary analysis, some logic, and some understanding of music theory to figure it out.

I know this all sounds rather implausible, so I’ve written a listening guide that explains step-by-step how I figured this out and how everything fits together. But even if you do believe me, it’s still sooo worth reading through this. Their story is absolutely epic and beautiful and heartbreaking. And yes, I really do believe this is their story. I’m just the interpreter.

Dude. You know what’s heartbreaking? That you wrote this dreckitude.

How could this be real?
If you’re still with me, you may be wondering how this could be possible, especially given that so many of these songs were written by other people. My guess is that a rock opera was not in their original plans when they started working on their albums; it was probably after they already had songs like “Fever,” “Soaked,” and “Live Like We’re Dying,” that they realized, “Hey! We could turn this into a story!” And then they started selecting and writing other songs to fill in the gaps and tie everything together. The final product is similar to a jukebox musical, such as Mamma Mia!, where songs by ABBA were put together to create a narrative.

But, you may say, some of the songs on your list are covers that they sung for AI, long before they would have started thinking about a rock opera. I realize this is the case, but songs often have multiple meanings. The reasons why they find a song meaningful now may not always be the same reasons why they chose it then.

But, you may then ask, How do you know that these songs go in this particular order if a song can have multiple meanings? Honestly, sometimes it was pretty hard to figure out where a song was supposed to go; I had to listen to the music very carefully in order to determine what came before and after it. It also helps that Adam recently did a track-by-track discussion of the songs on his album. Even so, I’m not absolutely certain that I have the correct order; this is my educated guess.

OK then, so how do you know that you have the right songs on the list? Adam and Kris have sung lots of songs that aren’t on their albums. Believe me, it took me days–and a lot of trial and error–to figure it out. My actual thought process was very circular, but there is definitely a method to my madness. If you’d like to see it, Click Here.

If you’re still feeling dubious about this whole rock opera thing (which I’m guessing you are) here are some other factors worth considering:

  • Adam and Kris are geniuses
  • They each have significant formal musical training; Adam in musical theater, and Kris in classical orchestral music.
  • They may have had help. At the very least, I think that some of Adam’s friends helped a little.
  • Some of their songs, though written by others, were written specifically for Adam and Kris. This means that they had some input into what they wanted the songs to sound like and communicate.
  • Other original songs, though written without Kris or Adam in mind, were often changed in sometimes subtle, but important ways. A few of these songs have demos available online, so you can compare the demos to the final versions to see what changes were made.
  • Even for well-known songs like “Mad World” or “Heartless,” an artist still has quite a bit of freedom in how s/he arranges a song, as we have seen both Kris and Adam do. I tried to work with more recent performances of covers to figure out where a song fits in the puzzle.
  • Adam and Kris are geniuses.

Analysis Overview
I am going to discuss in detail how I decided where each song fits, but, first, here is an overview of the factors I considered.

Mood
Is a song upbeat and happy, sad and melancholy, angry, hopeful, etc.? It’s likely, for example, that a song like “Send Me Your Angels” will not be immediately followed by “Sure Fire Winners.”

Subject Matter
Basically, what is a song about? Since a song can have multiple meanings, is it possible to figure out what a song means to them? If two songs seem to be talking about the same thing, they’re more likely to be connected.

Lyrics
Are there two songs that share similar words or phrases? Sometimes, if you parse out the lyrics of these songs, you can see that they actually look like two parts of the same conversation.

Music Style
The songs on this list range from singer/songwriter style to dance pop to glam rock to musical theater. Songs with very different styles are less likely to be connected.

Musical Themes
A song will often echo a theme of its next-door-neighbor in its music. For example, one of the first instances of this that I spotted is how the introductory piano music in “Bring it Back” echoes the melody of the chorus in “Voodoo.”

Introductions and Conclusions
Some songs have rather lengthy introductions or conclusions before or after the vocals, while, in others, the singing starts or stops more abruptly. Songs with with more elaborate introductions tend to go at the beginning of scenes. Likewise, songs with more definitive conclusions tend to go at the end of scenes.

OK, so now that we’ve go that covered, let’s get on with the show!

This little rock opera ends with a rousing interpretation of Don’t Stop Believing, which may actually make this “analysis” even more of a fail than previously believed. I would love to analyze this analysis further, but I was out until 6am last night. And I have to go out again in a few. I just don’t have the time or mental capacity to do this at the moment. I’m sure with the recent successes of American Idiot and even Rock of Ages will ensure this is going to be Broadway’s next big hit, so please share your thoughts on the soon-to-be next great American musical.

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  • Idoltard10

    For those of you worried that this is like, completely serious, I don’t think you need to be. There ARE some tinhatters that think the divorce is truly coming any day now, but most realize that as hot as it would be if this were real, it would ruin both Kris and Adam’s careers and the lives of all involved. Nobody that truly is invested in/wants long term success for these guys wants a scandal of that magnitude. I’ve only spoken to the author of this, like, maybe twice. It was done for entertainment purposes, if my instincts about this person are correct. I know it seems nuts to put that kind of time and effort into fueling fantasty, but people do it online all the time. Kind of like spending real money to build a fake farm on that game on Facebook. I wouldn’t do it, but many do. I don’t think there’s anything to worry about with THIS particular Kradam shipper though. All in good fun, and quite clever, if you actually wanted to do something like this.

  • sybiltrelawney

    I actually like Adam and enjoy listening to his album, and reading that scared the bejesus out of me. I had to see a neurosurgeon and have him remove the part of my brain in which the memory of reading that “analysis” was stored.

    • Danny Sparks

      I’m really sorry that you feel that way. It certainly wasn’t my intent to cause anyone distress. I was more going for fun and entertaining. I’m sorry that I failed to do that for you. Again, please feel free to ask me questions and I will do my best to try to answer them.

      Peace,
      Danny

  • CayKat

    I am just going to pretend I didn’t read this post. This madness does not exist and I will continue to live my life in a cloud of sweet, sweet ignorance.

  • Danny Sparks

    Hi there! I see you all are discussing my post over on kradam_ai. Please feel free to ask me questions, either here or over there. I’ll do my best to try and answer them.

    • http://topidolblog.com TopIdol

      Welcome Danny Sparks!

      May I begin?

      What made you decide to write this piece? Did something in particular trigger it?

      • Danny Sparks

        Oh I’m sorry I didn’t respond sooner. I didn’t realize that my comment had gone live; I was looking for it at the bottom of the page.

        So what triggered this? Really nothing in particular. I just thought it would be fun. I started noticing similar words and musical themes in the different songs and thought it would be cool to see if I could connect them all together in some way.

        • Glitterpuss

          How clever you are. I liked your idea about the rock opera. The songs do go together nicely.

  • magnacarta

    You want more tinhattery? Let me try my hand at tinhatting.


    allen_kimberly
    @adamlambert awww… Thanks sweetie, big hugs back to you! See you soon.

    SEE YOU SOON. OBVIOUSLY IT MEANS KRIS AND ADAM ARE GOING TO BE REUNITED. THEY ARE IN LURRRVE.

    KrisAllen
    Happy mothers day to all the moms especially @allen_kimberly. And @adamlambert likewise.

    OMG. ADAM IS HAVING KRIS’S BABY :O AHQEWIRTJ@!U&#%?*%RHKG

    Okay, why is no one stopping me?

    • leastofall

      Bwahahah!

    • laila

      This is very sweet. It almost makes up for all the negativity spewed on twitter.

    • Verbally Dyslexic

      LOL! So much of this was happening at _ai.

      • magnacarta

        lmao, I wonder if I’d be able to guess who you are on _ai.

        • Verbally Dyslexic

          I don’t think so. I’m very ~mysterious.

  • Svetique

    Could someone explain to me etymology of the term ”tinhatting”, please?

    • lostbrigade

      From the Fandom Wank Wiki:

      “Tinhats, or tin foil hats, are worn by conspiracy theorists to keep the government’s mind control rays out of their heads. The term can also apply to those who wear such headgear.

      In the Fandom Wank context, ‘Tinhat’ is used most often to refer to a group of LOTR fans who are convinced Dominic Monaghan and Elijah Wood are gay lovers. Lately, a new class of tinhats has emerged in the Harry Potter fandom. These are Dan/Emma shippers, people with an almost religious belief teenage actors Dan Radcliffe and Emma Watson are in love.”

      “Tinhats” is a derogatory name in fandom, but the Kradam “true believers” co-opted it and call themselves tinhatters.

      • erinnthered

        It’s better than the “Badgers.” Where did that one come from?

        • magnacarta

          it comes from the people that ship Tommy (Adam’s bassist) and Adam himself. I think it comes from Tommy’s ridiculous hair and its similarities to a badger. this is my theory anyway. i got banned from their community lol

      • Svetique

        Thanks! Wow, that’s rather interesting. I’ve heard that term used many times and always wondered who came up with it. Oh, and I don’t think it’s only Kradam believers. In many fandoms there’s One True Pairing, and people who fervently support it are called tinhatters.

        Yes, I’m fascinated by fandom sociology. Purely academic interest. :)

        • lostbrigade

          In many fandoms there’s One True Pairing, and people who fervently support it are called tinhatters.

          Right, but most of them are called TINHATS, not tinhatters. I think the Kradam people are the first group I’ve seen called tinhatters instead of tinhats. Not that there’s really a difference, of course.

          I think what I find most fascinating is that whether it’s Dominic and Elijah, or the Supernatural guys, or Blake Lewis and Chris Richardson, or Kris Allen and Adam Lambert, the tinhat fandoms always mirror each other; the theories are always along the same lines (coded clothing/jewelry! TPTB keeping the forbidden love apart! girlfriends as beards! etc etc), there are always locked communities and secret sources feeding information that validates delusions as truth, but cannot be revealed because people’s livelihoods and reputations would be at stake, etc.

  • magnacarta

    adamlambert
    @KrisAllen give your mom a big hug from me! :)

    That obviously means they are having buttsex. (Only, not really.) It’s cute though.

    (You know the tinhatters are thinking about that.)

    • Lauren

      Awwwww :)

    • wino

      awww, lambert wants to give that homophobic, evil Mamma Allen a hug? what has the world come to? :)

      serious note, happy mommie day to all the moms on here xo

  • margie

    Degrassi kicks major ass!! Haven’t watched much with the new cast though. I miss the Ashley, Craig, Sean, Jimmy (before the wheelchair), Spinner, Manny being a slut , etc eps….

    I also liked that show South of Nowhere on The N.

    • blacklisted

      I loved that group of kids too! Which is a sad commentary on my life since I’m old enough to have watched the ORIGINAL Degrassi.

      • erinnthered

        Yep. I watched the original. I’m too afraid to watch the Next Generation because I’m scarred just by the thought of Saved by the Bell: The New Class.

        • http://topidolblog.com TopIdol

          I’ve seen every episode of the new Degrassi. Been watching since 2003. Yes. I know. It’s sad. And I totally miss the old kids, except for that twat Emma, and Manny just ended up becoming an irritating whore. I love Ashley and Craig and Wheelchair Jimmy. And my favorite Ellie. And Marco! Even Paige!

          I’m a 33-year-old woman who watches Degrassi: The Next Generation. And I do not care.

          • erinnthered

            I think most of the Americans who watch Degrassi these days are over 30.

            When I have time, I’ll give it a try. I wish my TV catch up list weren’t so long. I will check it out, but no promises as to when.

            Also, Happy Birthday!

  • Kate123

    Hell yes Degrassi!!

    (I’m ignoring the rest of this post because I have never understood fan fiction and I don’t think I ever will.)

  • Kathy

    This is Adam related so hope its ok:

    This happened in my area. @ guys scammed money selling tickets to a fake Adam/Gaga concert. They sold 1800 tickets at $100 a pop. Who knew…we’re hillbillies, I thought we all voted for Kris lol Guess not.

    http://wowktv.com/story.cfm?func=viewstory&storyid=79549

    • Lauren

      I heard about that! Crazy stuff.

  • et

    This hurts my head. If this person is serious, that’s some crazy shit.

    • leastofall

      Shit like this really creeps me out! Fan fiction about ‘Fictionaly’ characters seems ok. If an ending of a book or movie is not to your liking, you make your own shit up… but Kris & Adam are real people with real lives. Kris has a wife. How is it ok to for people to hope and pray (even as a joke) that she dies or leaves him or they get divorced. How can that be ok!?
      I’ve seen so many tweets to Kris begging him to leave his wife or asking him to get it on with Adam or why is he fooling himself, his wife & other people.

      I remember how Tinhatter were so offended when Kris said in his After Elton interview, “People who think it’s a sexual romance are idiots, cos I’m married. It’s just a bromance.” etc etc. But of course, brave tinhatters soldiered on, coz clearly Kris didn’t deny he was in love with Adam or that he isn’t gay, all he said that he’s not with Adam right now bcoz he’s married. Bah!

      Sorry about the rant, I just find shit like this really sad.

      • laila

        I know very little about tinhatting, but it is equally sad how obsessed many Kris fans are with his marriage. I had to stop going to some Kris sites because it was so pervasive. I’ve heard a lot of negativity here against tinhatters, understandably because this is very disturbing, but very little is said of how stalkery Kris fans who are obsessed with Katy are.

        All of these people need to focus on their own lives rather than trying to live vicariously through celebrities personal lives.

        • erinnthered

          Hey, if there’s one thing the internet is good for, it’s helping people feed their co-dependency.

        • lostbrigade

          The Katy obsession is weird whoever it comes from, but I think the tinhatter side is more disconcerting because it tends to include sending her hate tweets, tracking down her friends to inundate their Formsprings with anonymous declarations of Kris’s imminent divorce and true gay leanings, and tracking down all kinds of details to tear her apart over.

          Like, she’s just Kris’s wife, not someone famous in her own right. I don’t see why she matters.

          • laila

            What’s so strange to me is that it’s not merely an obsession with Katy, it’s an obsession with their marriage. I go to certain sites to find out news on Kris’ music and concerts and sometimes charity work. To be inundated with extremely private information about his marriage is troubling. I am not quite sure how they even find out most of these things, but the same level of stalking you described seems to be involved, such as becoming friends with all of Kris’ friends and family on facebook, and at times traveling far distances for an opportunity to meet with Kris and Katy to later discuss their marriage and how in love they are. What do people get out of that?

            She really should not matter. She’s his wife, and that’s very nice for him that he has someone who loves him in his life. Beyond that, the need to know so many details about his marriage is beyond my comprehension. Perhaps these women have been hurt by love in the past and want to live vicariously through another couple? I can’t wrap my head around it to be honest and it seems to infiltrate a lot of Kris fan groups.

  • isidra

    I have to admit, I find this sort of thing fascinating. I mean, fanfic is one thing (a bit creepy, IMO, but probably, in the end, just about writing original stories with vaguely familiar faces), but this kind of analysis is kind of amazing. It’s so weird to see what people come up with.

  • Idoltard10

    Kraty is a sham. Kradam is real. Adam’s ‘headache’ in vegas? Doubt it had to do with the ad attached to his shoulders, and not asprin, but a certain Pocket Idol was the only cure. Kris sought Adam out after making an appearance for appearances sake at that Garth Brooks concert, and then left his ‘wife’ with his buddies and went to deliver the cure. Kradam is real folks.

    • AH

      Ummm? I REALLY hope you are not serious. And if you are, you need to take that tinhatting shit somewhere else because it’s not allowed here.

      • Idoltard10

        Getting all liquored up and shipping Kradam. I’ll take it elsewhere, sorry.

    • nerdgirl

      So, Adam fans are a bunch of sexually unfulfilled (my spell-checker also suggests “unfulfillable”) women with a lot of time on their hands. Sad, sad, sad.

      • Lauren

        Oh how I love generalizations…

    • lostbrigade

      The creepy/crazy thing is that some people actually believe this… like seriously seriously believe it.

  • blacklisted

    As someone who’s been part of BOTH the HP fandom and bandom, I believe I can speak with authority when I say that the chick who wrote this is cray cray.

    I mean, I’ve read 10,000 word meta on the subtext of the Harry/Draco relationship and half a dozen speculative pieces about Pete and Mikey’s Summer of Like, but this…this is just wackadoodoo.

    • erinnthered

      Knowing your experience with the crazy, I am frightened by this analysis. Truly.

      I’m more frightened by this woman, but I am definitely frightened by this analysis.

  • caspar

    That would be possibly the world’s longest opera, rock or otherwise. 43 songs?!

    • mozart4898

      Lol not even close…I believe a couple of Wagner’s operas are like 5 hours or something themselves – and in reality, he had written I believe it was 3 of them to ideally be performed as a cycle. It would probably take 12+ hours at least to perform if it was actually done. Opera’s not really my thing although it was of course something that in college music you do study some, so I may be a bit off, but no, there’s some crazy long operas – as in, impractical lengths to ever be performed regularly if at all.

  • Kathy

    Hey I watch Vampire Diaries, I can throw no stones. And holy cow! The time this must have taken her lol

    • wino

      umm, Vampire Diaries rocks! sorry haters, but that show is damn good :) and oh, team damon!

  • On The Edge

    WOW, can you say “reaching?” I’m surprised this tinhatter hasn’t pulled a muscle he’s reaching so high!

    • margie

      LMAO!! Hum this shit scares me. I just can’t think of anything to say. For once I am rendered speechless. That is hard to do…lol

    • lostbrigade

      Oh they barely flexed their muscles for this one. The serious tinhatters analyze every interview for body language and every tweet and interview and string together elaborate theories.

      The current one is that Kris bought land in Arkansas to build a house to give his wife in the divorce. And then he will run into Adam’s waiting arms… or something.

      • cc

        Oh they barely flexed their muscles for this one.

        LOL I agree. I hope s/he just did it for fun and no one take this seriously. Based on her/his literary analysis, logic and music understanding, this is what I gather…

        So, Adhum Lombort and Kurs Allon are ~geniuses. Glamberts and Kristards are just pawns still in their game and serve for their entertainment. Fanwars is part of their sick, heartless and twisted masterplan. Hey, they even think their fans are crazy or loco. Their feelings for each other are written all over their faces yet fans take it as the elephant in the room, not just a rabbit down the rabbithole, and pretend that they don’t see it. Their forbidden love knows no boundaries and will weather the hurricanes and avalanche that looms above their head 86400 seconds everyday. Like scientists, Adum Loombert and Chris Olen are ~geniuses to fool us all.

        And this is a joke. ;)

        • mozart4898

          ^^^ 86,400 seconds every day, I read that and for some weird reason that song from Rent popped into my head (what is it, 525,600 minutes or something like that?)

          • cc

            It is a phrase in Live Like We’re Dying. When I heard The Script’s version, before Kris released it as his first single, that line from Rent came into my mind.

  • Lauren

    I actually think this is kind of fun. I am going to assume it isn’t serious because that would change it from fun to scary.

    • yuppie

      Come on. This person is totally serious. And insane.

      • http://topidolblog.com TopIdol

        NOOOOOOO! She’s just obsessive compulsive. She’s NOT psychotic and delusional!

        However, if someone is questioning their sanity, this is a good argument that they’re not actually crazy. Although Idol fantards test the limits of that once-viable theory.

    • Lauren

      I really think this is just all in good fun. That’s what a lot of the Kradam tinhatting is. It would be really hot if it was real,, but deep down we know that the sexual tension has not been/ never will be released.

    • magnacarta

      Lauren, are you into Supernatural? If you are, you know these crazy tinhatter people are for real. They really truly believe in their theories. If something threatens their theory, they’ll make it disappear or somehow twist it to suit their ideals. Why do you think they all hate Katy?

      You, being a sane fan, would want to believe that no such thing exist. For a long time, I thought the same, but I’ve reconsidered after I started digging. Some of these tinhatters cry for hours and get depressed when they see pictures of Kris and Katy looking happy together. Some of them insults Katy and insinuate all kind of things about her. It’s not pretty.

      (Shipping and tinhatting are not the same thing. You’re a shipper, but I don’t think you’re a serious tinhatter ;) )

      • Lauren

        No, I am not into Supernatural but one of my RL friends is pretty into the fandom.

        Why do you think they all hate Katy?

        Katy is the reminder that isn’t real. They hate her because she keeps them from actually believing that Kris and Adam are sexing it up.

        I think it really just depends. Some people truly believe it and some are just fantasizing.

      • blacklisted

        Supernatural J2 tinhatters are probably all former LotR tinhatters who moved on when Dom/Elijah shattered their dream of a hobbit wedding. Point is, they are the craziest motherfuckers in the internets.

      • wino

        ha, i started watching supernatural last month and read about the crazy, hardcore tinhating that the show inspires. theyu even wrote it/made mention of it in the show! its part funny as hell, part fking odd.

  • mylifeback

    I think a few of my brain cells may have died while reading this.

  • laila

    Surely this is a joke. It must be a joke. Right? So much thought and effort put into so much ridiculousness.

    Idol fans are so odd at times, so this may be utterly serious. I’ll never forget the time I was unwittlingly linked to fan fiction about Kris and his wife that included very graphic depictions of their sex life. I knew about fan fiction from being a Battlestar Galactica fan but I assumed it was limited to fictional characters, or in the very least fictional situations. It made me realize it’s difficult to find any truly sane fan groups in the Idol world.

    • magnacarta

      It’s not limited to fictional characters at all. This real people fiction is called RPF – Real People Fiction. There’s also a sub-category: RPS – Real People Slash. I know the fandom world all too well.

      • laila

        I can understand Real People Fiction as you call it, if it involves fictional situations or as a way of expressing fantasy. But fictional stories about a married couple and the way they behave privately, with graphic sex scenes, is just beyond my comprehension. It’s a little too much like trying to be in their lives.

        To each their own, I suppose, it was just shocking and disturbing to me.

      • blacklisted

        “There’s also a sub-category: RPS – Real People Slash. I know the fandom world all too well.”

        Me too magnacarta, me too….*hides in shame*

  • lostbrigade

    Sadly this does not even make the top ten list of craziest Kradam Tinhatter Theories I’ve seen floating around the internet.

  • magnacarta

    I will admit having read fanfiction about these two, because why the heck not? I don’t believe it’s true or whatever, but I like reading trash fiction. I’ve read fanfiction for more than a decade. Been in a dozen fandoms or so. I never believed any of it. Reading fanfiction is like reading a book, but often with more spelling errors. And sometimes it’s surprisingly good. What can I say?

    This kind of theory though, this is the kind that really creeps me out. A rock opera, really? And you don’t think you’re delusional. I’m really beginning to think that the tinhatting is getting out of control à la j2/Supernatural kind of way. Poor dudes. Next step is death threats at their significant others.

  • nerdgirl

    “I am not delusional” – that ‘s what all delusional people say.

    “If you are still with me” – actually, that’s where I was lost, sorry…

  • ladymadonna

    I think I need to go get stoned and then come back to read this post in order to fully comprehend it.

  • Verbally Dyslexic

    I think Heliotrope might have done the same with David Cook’s self-titled album. Heliotrope or some other verbose Cooktard. Not the sekrit-declaration-of-forbidden-but-undying-love/relationship, but that this is the intrinsic work of some level of genius that makes them a genius by association for figuring it out.

  • yuppie

    Clearly, I do not possess the literary analysis, logic, or music theory knowlege to figure this out. Damn.

    • mozart4898

      The thing about music analysis is that if you keep analyzing enough, you can relate anything to anything. In graduate school I took a class where the basic intent was to analyze classical works and reduce them to, more or less, the first note (the tonic, or key note), a note somewhere in the middle (the dominant), and then a return to the key note. Every single other note along the way eventually was either just dropped out as harmony or just plain unimportant, or included on a lower level of analysis as leading towards one of those 3 notes. It was interesting at times, but at other times, ridiculous…